Xi zang - Tibet
April 8th, 2008 by Gareth inThailandIf you have a spare half hour then this is an interesting read. http://www.index-china.com/index-english/Tibet-s.htmlIts very flag waving in places but if you ignore some of the writers opinion and pick out the facts then it gives you another side to the debate that is missing completely in the media. The main thrust is the fact that we look at only things written by the West, in the West by people who don’t understand the history and past relationships, most of the history is written in Chinese and therefore ignored or not available. Certainly Brits have short memories and not many know how we tried to promote secession in the region.
At the back of your mind simply remember that for centuries Western countries have been taking a chunk out of China and in more recent and still very bitter history they were invaded and brutalised by the Japanese while the world stood by (only taking notice after 1942). With this in mind its easier to understand why they defend ‘one China’ so vehemently and have little trust of lao wai’s (foreigners).
As for a question, well here it is;
Protesting about human rights by trying to stop someone carrying a torch down a street, to me, reeks of hypocrisy. You are jumping all over the torch bearers human rights aren’t you?
It is also futile and will get zero results, in fact it will probably produce the opposite reaction in China. I am results oriented in most things I do, especially when doing business in China, so I consider which road will get me these results and analyse performance and approaches closely to see what works best. When will the West wake up and try to understand the mindset of North East Asians and modify their ‘protests’ to take into account the mind set of the people they want to change? We always reach for the stick yet the carrot is proven to get results, will you side with the hippies ‘direct action’ or think long and hard about the issue and make your own mind up about the approach we should use?
Awesome post GIC offering a flip side that I (James flowers of Doo-bye) didn’t know existed….
56 nationalities in China - had no idea - or that Tibet is on the up….I’ll read more and drop back soon…
Thanks Gareth for your balanced view. The link should be made compulsory reading for anyone protesting about the Olympic Torch.
And congratulations again for the BBC interview
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hi jim and emma moppet here.i am very exited what u r doing to my mum-little aussie cynic.and i thank u too bye
Admin, what are you doing to that poor woman?
Hiya Moppett!
Thanks for your note and you’re welcome to join in here at GO! Smell the flowers.
You could start a ‘kid corner’ as Forums if you like or start any discussion that interests you.
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Hi from Dubai, or should we say G’DAY?
I have only just seen this… moppet sitting next to me… hmm.
she is suppose to get permissin before commenting… so I check what she is saying… sorry Gareth…
didnt no.. its the first time she has come in with out me knowing… oh god I thought I had another year yet…. lol..
aussiecynic’s last blog post..Martin Luther King Jnr
It seems to me to be a similar situation to the Middle East. How the past and present is reported in the West by Western media is so often far from the truth, or huge chunks of highly relevant information, required to give a balanced perspective, are simply ignored.
The Israeli / Palestinian conflict is a classic example of highly selective reporting combined with a huge bias that favours Israel, particularly on the American networks.
Though I cannot claim to understand China, I not surprised one bit by your post Gareth.
Thanks for the info.
David, I can’t see how you can criticise western media’s reporting when countries like China and Burma block sites like YouTube in order to portray their own picture of the world and how their country is being viewed.
However, having spent a great deal of time in the USA, their media itself is very state controlled.
Your comment certainly did not posess the balanced approach that you think the western media should aspire to.
Phil’s last blog post..Life In A Nutshell: Recently………..
Hello Phil,
Perhaps you should go back and re-read my comment, which was in essence about the Middle East, not China or Burma. I drew a comparison with Gareth’s comments on his post as I see parallels with the Middle East. I further clarified my position by admitting my lack of knowledge about China. I don’t see how you reach the conclusion I was being imbalanced.
However, if you want to further the debate, let’s go for it:
I offered no defense for state censorship in China, Burma or, for that matter, in the Middle East, nor do I seek to. I don’t know China / Burma, but am interested in GIC’s comments and draw parrallels to them with my own experience of the Middle East where I have been for the last 14 years.
The comparison I make is that the Middle Eastern situation is grossly misunderstood in the West, as GIC points out is also the case in China.
With specific regard to the UK (my home country) the average person’s understanding of the Middle Eastern region is usually way off the mark, due to the sensationalist nonsense propagated by the mass market gutter press.
When I watch US news channels, CNN, Fox etc. reporting on the Middle East, there is a huge positive bias (yes huge) towards Israel and an equally negative one to Palestine.
We have debated the Middle Eastern situation many times in this site and every time (although I should not be surprised) I am amazed at the lack of knowledge often displayed by Westerners. Too frequently they are quick to draw hard conclusions as to what is fact and what is not, and these conclusions are based on the biased, sensationalist, misinformed reporting in the Western Media.
For example, take the recent comment by Ana on Rufus’s post wherein she states that fundamentalist Islamic terrorism is a result of a lack of food and water in the region. I don’t doubt Ana’s sincerity in making the comment, but what leads an American citizen to believe this is fact, when it could not be further from the truth? My assumption is she based it on the information she gained from the Western media.
Without commenting on China / Burma, as I do not possess the knowledge, I do not seek to vilify Western media versus Middle Eastern media. The Middle Eastern media is most certainly censored, which in my opinion is wrong, however it does not peddle sensationalist nonsense either.
All this leads to greater misunderstanding on both sides, which only supports further conflict.
Gareth believes the Olympic protests only serve to make the Chinese more determined. My take on this is that this is a classic example of one culture expecting a different one to follow their value systems, the reality is this does not happen. The key is to understand what makes different cultures work and influence change along the norms that the different culture accepts.
Assuming Gareth’s point of view regarding the Olympic protests is true, then the protestors are doing far greater damage to the potential of a free Tibet and pushing its reality further out of reach.
China blocked youtube temporarily as have other countries. The rights and wrongs of this can be debated heartily, for the record I disagree with it. China is very open with its censorship many other Western countries aren’t.
The first case of censorship I remember was when Maggie Thatcher blocked the publication of ‘Spycatcher’. She banned it on the back of it containing sensitive material, which it did not.
Censorship comes in many forms and also many levels. Now, in the UK I could not publish a web site showing how to make a bomb from flour and hydrgoen peroxide - is this censorship? Yes, however most accept it.
China is far less censored than it was, however moving from total state control to a free press is a gradual process. China has made lots of steps forward but I fear the current reactions will push it back. The government will reel in the freedoms or certainly not allow any further ones, surely the opposite outcome to that which the protesters desire.
There is blatant hypocrisy at work in our countries as we conveniently forget many issues we have or have ignored because of the countries in question are deemed as friendly.
GarethinChina’s last blog post..Go Smell one Year on!
I remember several books banned down here, and some the church tried Ban.. Harry Potter being some of them… promoted witch craft… well dur its about wizards….
I have the same fear with China closing its doors… hope it doesnt come to that..
aussiecynic’s last blog post..Martin Luther King Jnr
I don’t disagree at all with the futility of jumping on a flame carrier. It sends the wrong message to everyone.
However, to ban protesting at all, or even arrenting a man for waving the Tibetan national flag is appauling.
We do have the right to protest peacefully about any damn thing we like and the people of China are entitled to see what is happeing which affects their country in the wider world.
I do understand the carrot or the cane concept, but the question I would ask you in return would be, Should a country which has invaded another sovereign state benefit from that invasion in the form of economic bribes just to relax it’s grip on the society it tries to suppress and corrupt?
Is it not better to isolate that country from dealing financially with the rest of the world until it’s government understand that bullies will not be tolerated in today’s world?
Phil’s last blog post..Life In A Nutshell: Recently………..
I believe the best way to sort this out is to get rid of the coppers and have an equal number of skinheads versus tiddlywinks
then we’d see who really wanted it
my money is NOT on the skinheads who lke to give it out then moan when it comes on top
I do think a more productive solution would be to stay silent…..
silent protests… just stand there.. .. If they need to protest at the torch then stand in silence…
I think this form of protest would receive far more understanding than the violent nonsense presently going on…
We are shortening the torch route through Canberra because of security this is just ridiculous….
The Olympics is an event for sport… for the world to showcase their best atheles not their political thoughts… It is about time governments started talking and working together rather than slapping faces…. it is so stupid…
As far as Tibet goes.. I really dont have a magic wand, and have now idea on what the solutions is….
There is not a Country in this world who can raise clean hands to human rights abuses…and the asian countries have done their fair share… perhaps it is time to simply tell countries to stop… and show them how too rather than giving them more reasons to continue…
the list of countries mine included grows shorter every year… perhaps one day there will be no list….
aussiecynic’s last blog post..Martin Luther King Jnr
aussiecynic:
So very true. Silent protests are, by far, the most potent.
However, they need to be on a mass scale.
I know that there is a group invite on MySpace trying to get a worldwide candle vigil on August 8th as a demonstration of the “average human’s” desire for peace in all countries.
I also support your observation regarding the bloodied hands of almost every country on the globe.
If only the UN was not such an inept body, perhaps the regular people of this worl could truly have a voice.
Phil’s last blog post..Life In A Nutshell: Recently………..
I agree.. the United Natins does many good things, but they are fast becoming and outdated mode of negotiation… I guess they are so caught up with diplomatic red tape and legalities.. that it is hard to see the way through… Australia is attempting to gain a seat at the table… maybe we can shake it up…
I’ll check out the candle vidual.. it is far better to appeal for one thing across the board than to single one person, town, or country when there are so many wrongs everywhere….
BTW Welcome Phil
aussiecynic’s last blog post..Martin Luther King Jnr
aussicynic:
Thank you for your kind welcome. I hope to spend a lot of time here debating the miriad of issues that are out there.
I can’t help wondering where our desire as individuals to right wrongs has gone. In fact, not just the desire to, but the will to take it upon ourselves to protest/take action/ influence government.
perhaps in the web out there is a spark that will join like-minded people together.
I was singularly impressed by your country’s stand on the Japan whaling issue. If only all countries had such public convictions.
Phil’s last blog post..Life In A Nutshell: Recently………..
Thanks Phil
Our Whaling stance was only possible with our change of Government.. the previous Prime Minister lost his spine a while ago… I think he left under a Bush… Rudd however is taking it the them… The fact they are hunting in a Recognised (not by Japan) marine sanctuary in our waters… just makes it worse…
I think the internet is sparking the desire or deep planted aspect to do what is right back in peoples thoughts…
We are learning so much and much faster than ever before.. this hopefully is a good thing… Reports by people there rather than paid Jornos…. I have seen Youtube clips before its even reported and before Jornos arrive… just amazing.. perhaps more open society will lead to positive actions… You cant lie about a video recording events as they happen.. with sound.. these days everyone has Phone Camera etc… and can record and download instantly…transparency perhaps..
aussiecynic’s last blog post..Martin Luther King Jnr
Welcome to GO! Smell the flowers Phil and thanks for your measured contributions so far….
Watch out for the thorns!
You’ll soon get to know the regulars here and you’re welcome to start over at Forums as well!
Jim & Em
Phil,
The desire to produce change does not mean you need to protest in the traditional sense. Understanding the people you want to get to change and then appealing in a way that will get notice and results is infinitely better than simply joining a bunch of spotty students stinking of pachouli oil and waving your fists at a regime 9000 km’s away whilst simultaneously pissing off most of the residents of your own country and theirs.
I always feel its far better to empathise, understand and then try and think of motivivational ways to get change. The problem with protets is they are meaningless and toothless. Did the Greenham common women get rid of cruise missiles or simply spend all day in their tents clam jousting? Have the anti Iraq deomstrators done anything? Did the Janpanese stop hrpooning whales? (why is killing a whale any more barbaric than us killing a cow is to a hindu - perspective thats all) etc…
Whilst it is noble and good to want to help your fellow man surely its better to actually think about it and channel energies into courses of action that will garner results.
A bit more time thinking and understanding would definitely be time well spent.
GarethinChina’s last blog post..The Triple Filter Test
Gareth.
I certainly agree that understanding other cultures and helping change their attitudes is the more desirable method of change, but there is no real forum for individuals or groups to do that.
The UN is like a big tuskless elephant nowadays with the “Big 5″ not willing to compromise.
There is still, in my opinion a great deal of east vs west hypocracy on both sides, Iraq being a fine example.
Where and how can the average bloke on the street let a government, even their own, know that they are not happy with something that is going on and actually feel they are being hear, even if they are not being listened to.
By publicly turning your backs, en masse, or lighting candles during the opening ceremony, you are at least showing some solidarity in demonstrating you displease.
As for any non-violent protest, that will never work. You only serve to alienate yourself from those who support your views but not your methods.
Phil (aka Purescotsman)’s last blog post..Life In A Nutshell: Recently………..
GIC - I think you’re right about the carrot rather than the stick getting results. The problem is which side do you give the carrot to? They’re a bit like children…. offer them both something and as soon as one takes it, the other will claim not to have any desire for it.
Spock! Your child is having a tantrum
I’m just waiting for the first country to announce its pulling out….. but that’s a shame for all the atheletes that have worked towards this pivotal moment in their lifes career… its them that its about and going to affect the most really.
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the irony being about the whole games is that for all the countries moaning most of their athletes ’supplements’ will be produced in china.
we hate the chinese
unless they help us win gold
The future of the torch looks dubious as predicted….From an earlier Washington post:
As the torch arrived in San Francisco to begin its next stage, Chinese officials vowed the relay would continue on its planned route, and countries in line to host the torch relay said they were stepping up security.
Meanwhile, the president of the International Olympic Committee, Jacques Rogge, was asked at a news conference in Beijing whether the continuation of the international relay was certain.
“I’m not saying whether it is certain or not,” he said. “There will be a discussion of the executive board on the torch relay, but I attach on that absolutely no speculation whatsoever.”
Vigorous street protests in Paris and London sent the torch’s triumphal run into disarray, and organizers were bracing for more of the same in San Francisco. Thousands of protesters are expected to gather, with actor Richard Gere and Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu scheduled to lead a candlelight vigil in support of Tibetan rights, and a counter-relay and other events planned by a variety of groups.
Rather than a symbol of the Olympic spirit, the torch has become a magnet for protesting myriad Chinese policies on Tibet, human rights and press freedoms and its support of repressive governments in Burma and Sudan.
Chinese and Olympic spokespeople issued strong condemnations of the protests, calling them “vile” and “blasphemy.” Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu emphasized in a news conference that people did not understand the facts of what was happening in China. “Playing up some topics to tarnish China’s image ahead of the Olympics will surely get nowhere,” she said.
Official Chinese media broadcast images from Monday’s protests in Paris. Newspapers generally blamed the actions on Tibetan “separatists,” although one newspaper, the Global Times, criticized the French government for not doing more to protect the flame.
Slanty eyed b*****ds i’ve got no sympathy for them - they won’t pay for proper glasses