gou le gou le????Enough is enough
December 1st, 2007 by Gareth inThailandTolerance and respect are qualities that have to be earned in my view. In business and in my personal life I give neither unless they are due.
We hear so much these days about how bridges need to be built between people and cultures. In England and many Western countries many argue we have gone too far in accomodating others and often the respect and tolerance we show is not reciprocated.
In China I have never found problems with Chinese accepting Westerners although I have found issues of Westerners not respecting Chinese cultural norms. I myself have an issue with some things done here but tolerate it as its not my country.
So how are we supposed to react when a normal, middle aged lady, who has given up a portion of her life to educate children in a country poorer than her own is arrested, imprisoned, put on trial, found guilty and then sentenced to 15 days in prison for allowing children to call their teddy bear the same name as their prophet? Is this the face of a religious insurgent?
Not only that but then many march though the city demanding she is beheaded? Again just for allowing children to call a teddy bear after their prophet, beheaded no less!
I’m no religious expert but I can’t imagine that their God and his messengers meant for a harmless middle aged teacher to be killed over a mistake with a teddy bear. Certainly not for a mistake that they have twisted into blasphemy.
I for one have very strong views on this and I firmly believe that when this sort of behaviour is demonstrated we should take action. I would be very keen to make sure the UK government removes all aid to this state and exercises the strongest possible sanctions it can, however that won’t happen as the bleating ‘do gooders’ seem to rule the show even in the face of public opinion.
Lets face it given the aid we are asked to give to Africa I am disgusted that none of the other countries around them or the Geldoff’s and Bono’s of the world did not bring pressure to bear. Not one penny of my money will go to Africa from now on. Asia only.
So do you agree, are we at the point where enough is enough and its time to really stop being pushovers?
If you are reading this on Daffodilsfloral then be aware this is a Splog site run by a talentless gimp who can’t write himself.
Your post was so good, they stole it twice…
I agree with you Gareth - this has gone too far now. Time to make things happen.
As you say, I doubt if their God and his messengers meant for a harmless middle aged teacher to be killed over a mistake with a teddy bear.
It is the few extremists who give the rest of any group a bad name.
Hopefully she will be back home soon.
I have heard many opinions expressed on this and one was if she was living in this culture did she not know the cultural no no’s most people take with them into another country knowledge of customs while I do not condone what is being done to her….it highlights the need to be well versed in another countries traditions….it may seem harsh to us and is not the way we would do things but it is their country and they have a right to their traditions and religion….and a right to expect people who go to their country to respect their traditions….I do not condone their punishments for percieved crimes and I think some tolerance would not go astray but I think it is wrong to judge them by our cultural morality….
I’m not judging them by any countries morality, I am judging them on human morality.
As my post says I am well versed on cultural issues, I have lived in 5 different countries, China is about as different as it gets.
What I am not condoning is the fact that so many have stayed silent. So many that cry to us for help in their times of need - famine, disaster, drought, etc. We don’t turn our backs, we don’t ignore them, we give and give selflessly. Where are all these countries now? Short memories.
She didn’t call the bear any name, she asked the children to name it. Drawing senseless cartoons and republishing them just to test the freedom of the press is pointless, unfeeling and a prime example of cultural insensitivity. I disagreed with the publishing of them at the time as I do now.
This is a whole different kettle of fish and is plain evil. If it was a minority as Arvind proposes then fine, however it’s not and its way out of hand.
Hi Gareth,
I am not condoning this whether it is a minority or not. But I do wonder who has stroked all this up for their own means. Reminds me of the time when the Ayatollah issued a Fatwa on Salman Rushdie (Sir) a few months after the book was published. Apparently, most of the people who came out on the streets to protest against the book didn’t have a clue what they were protesting about.
I totally agree with you being so pissed off with all those who have remained silent when their voices needed to be heard. It is time to stop pussy footing around at the top level and get this thing resolved.
Yes, human morality comes first.
Time to apply some common sense, for god’s sake!
Oops, WHICH god’s sake?!
I agree that it’s likely most of the protesters aren’t really aware of the situation. Misinformation spreads rapidly in many of these countries and the populace has an incredibly hard time telling what’s real from false. I can imagine how difficult it would be to tell the difference. Who is right, your own local religious leaders or the outsider country that everyone dislikes?
However, I’m really worried for that woman’s life. These leaders have enough influence and control of the local government to have her killed, whether legally or in a mob fury. I hope that Britain is keeping a close eye on the situation and is in very close discussion with the Sudanese government to make sure that she gets out of there safely when her time in jail is up.
I think you are right it has so many different angles and so many different versions of the story coming out I do not have the expertise to talk about cultural issues nor do I have all the facts so I am willinging to listen to what is being said and take it all in……what I brought up is simply another perspective given the world as many have pointed out is many shades of grey
Wow GIC
I totally agree…. and was shocked at the situation, but alas not to surprised by the action…
After the cartoon in Denmark it was only a matter of time before something along these lines took place…
there are so many countries which take the aid given as a matter of right not charity that it would never have entered their minds it could be removed…
If countries such as England or Australia past similar laws regarding the christain faith the out cry from the rest of the world be heard all the way to Jupiter…. but for some stupid reason it is condoned in these other countries….
I personnaly dont give a bugger what anyone else believes our how they pray or what ever….. but don’t try and tell me how I should go about it ……
church and politics should never be combined and having this sort of policy entered in to law is just shows a total lack of understanding and tolerance for other cultures and beliefs….
I hope the teacher recieves some sort of reconpense for the her suffering … but I would like to see England fight back in some regards… least of all removing their funding…..
Lets Geldolf and Bono raise awareness on these issues… with a bloody concert…..
Hi all,
I covered this article myself from the time she was arrested to the sentencing which even then surprised me, this latest mob protest calling for her execution was an even bigger surprise.
We all draw our own conclusions but when the children originally chose names there were 8 names in all, one of them Muhammad, I believe it was 21 out of about 23 kids which chose the name Muhammad, they probably picked that name because their prophet is like a hero to them at 6 and 7 years of age.
Other teachers in the school didn’t have a problem with it so from the culture point of view how was an English teacher supposed to know it was wrong if the native teachers didn’t?
My conclusion about the protesters was that they had been misled (probably) by media, being told an english woman named a teddy Muhammad but didn’t give any reason, so now you have thousands of people assuming she intended to insult their prophet which holds severe penalties.
I believe for everyone’s sake they should just get her on a plane out of there so the country can calm down and she can try and get on with her life, that’s if she hasn’t suffered too much trauma.
And yes british peers are visiting her. I wish her luck and a safe return.
Tony:)
Another question I think is why the Mullahs and leaders keep these guys wound up so tight that the slightest incident leads to guys in the street chanting death.
The Danish cartoon was obvious and unnecessary, its served no purpose other than to cause tension, but I still think it was over the top what happened in response. Here we have something totally different yet the outcome and reaction are the same.
Is it really healthy to have that sort of tension wound into people?
Lets add to the fact that many of the Danish protesters in the UK where hardly model followers of Islam. That idiot dressed up like a suicide bomber was receiving UK social security whilst selling drugs and was out on parole at the time.
So to give a religious ending to this rant of mine ‘let him who is without sin cast the first stone’
… and, ‘people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones’; based on this, why can’t we all live in rubber houses and throw rubber stones?
Might seem a flippant remark, and in the circumstances humour (? debateable) may not be construed as constructive. But stretching the analogy (another handy characteristic of rubber) just asking for tolerance, whether it be religious, political or simple common sense humanity.
However, as Robin J & Tony Lewis point out this apparently simple plea is wholly borne out of Western ideologies, and as much it’s ingrained into our sensibilities won’t mean a jot to Islamic fundamentalists; common sense doesn’t come into their teachings, the Koran is very black & white in the fundamentalist mentality.
Ultimately, the responsibilty lies with the leaders, teachers & educational systems employed. As Gareth states, the Mullahs hold sway over these minorities and is their words that are carried out in the actions of the mob. How you change their demagoguery is the crux of this problem; simply stated but beyond my tiny mind particularly since their very world view is so entrenched, and purposefully and violently opposes the tide of change that Western ideologies might employ to drive change.
I always thought the Northern Ireland problem would be incredibly diffiicult to solve, but has been. Similarly, the Palestinian question, and yet to be resolved. Of these religious, political dilemmas the rise of fundamental Isalm is the most ominous, unlikely to be localised to small araes of the world and, pessimistic as it may seem, hard to see where resolution will come from.
Gareth
I called Jim and pondered over the same subject you have posted about. In fairness you’ve given a much more balanced (or should i say reflective) post than i would.
I’ve had chance to sleep on it and my considered view is that we should test the effectiveness of the Trident II missile system. We shouldn’t rush into this as beforehand we should recover all of the $660 million that we’ve given to the country in aid.
Yep, I wondered if this would be covered on a blog too Angry, cant be too carfeull here in Doo-bye! Well covered, well commented and well worth the post GIC!
Sorry, but I just can’t see what all the fuss is about. Nearly every other person in the Middle East has Mohammed, Muhamed, Mohamad or however you spell it as part of their names.
At first I thought it was a wind up Gareth, but obvioulsy not!
I think these people have lost the plot, and for once I agree with angry.
Get the innocent people and the teddy bear out of there before testing the missile system.
Just to pick up further on the aid point, over the last 5 years, Sudan has received over ?326 million in aid from the UK.
That ?326 million went to President Omar al-Bashir, the same person that since taking over in 1989, has waged war against the Christian south, had Bin Laden as a guest during the 90’s and more recently backed the Janjaweed militia during their murderous rampage in Darfur.
I think this sickening incarceration has gone beyond religion, fundamentally it is about one persons hatred of the West whether that is linked with a religious view or not.
So I’ll use another old saying, don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
Bridget’s take on the matter:
The reaction from the Sudanese is totally uncalled for, that’s the long and short of it. No debate, no excuses.
I quizzed my Arab buddies on the matter (they come from Saudi, Jordan, Palestine and Iraq), and they do not condone what is happening. Good to hear!
Bridget’s take on the whole issue of bridging gap between cultures and religions: has to move from macro-level to micro-level for understanding and respect to have a real chance. It’s not about building a mosque or a shivala (correct term Arvind?) in England or a church in Dubai, it’s about individuals putting aside prejudices and fears (it’s understandably a natural human tendency to be repelled/ scared by what’s different, unfamiliar, or ’strange’) and going towards someone of a different faith with openness and a willingness to understand and respect. Like Bridget does everywhere she goes to ha!
Just out of curiosity, may I ask how many of the regulars here have a friend of a different faith btw??
Bridget
It’s not the reaction of the Sudanese - it’s the reaction of a religious group within Sudan.
Food for thought
Islam, as portrayed in the encyclopedia of Islam, in the Koran, and the Hadith, was spread by means of the sword. The sword played a major role in spreading Islam in the past, and it is the sword that preserves Islam today. Islam relies upon jihad in spreading the religion. ? Spreading Islam by means of the sword is a duty incumbent upon all Muslims.
To answer your question - i have friends - i don’t really care about their faith, but generally it tends not to be the one that we’re talking about.
I defer to your superior knowledge Angry.. you seem to be an expert on Islamic history and the Koran.. As I am not, I won’t call your bluff. I just know none of my Muslim friends (even the Palestinian amongst them) are swordsmen..
On another note, I honestly find it puzling that people freely choose to live in a given place yet distance themselves from its culture and people. What can I say, Bridget is just not built that way, but everyone his own I guess. Cheers.
Cheers
Bridget
I should have put quotation marks around the ”Islam.. to….Muslims”
They are not my ‘words’ but the words of a Coptic Priest
Angry
I’m sure that if my Muslim buddies were so inclined, they could similarly find some Christianity-phobic Muslim priest who would arbitrarily say something along the same lines.. about the Coptic Priest’s religion.
In other words, this statement carries even less credibility with me than if you yourself had stated it.
We have exhausted the subject as far as I am concerned. RYK has summed it up beautifully.
My friends are a mixture of Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Agnostics, Atheists. The only part of their faith that is important to me is what is important to them.
You are one kewl chick Lib!
A quotation that someone attributed to George Bernard shaw was along the lines of
‘Islam is probably the finest religion practised by the worst followers’
Ouch!
That you choose to quote Bernard Shaw on Islam seems a bit in contradiction with what you say in your later comment above… but then it might just be lil Bridget being daft as usual.. ha!
Bridget
See above
the fact that you are outraged by this shows your ignorance of politics in the 3rd world. Politicians in these countries like to raise “issues” to enhance their brand position, so a group that is pro Islam or pro Hindu or pro Labour or whatever will pick up any kind of soft target and put together 10,000 uneducated to parade and pelt stones.
What has probably happened is that some political party picked up this issues and paid $0.25 to each people to march the streets and make a big noise. Now after this they can go and claim to people that they defend Islam, or they have saved their people from the White Man, etc.
If you actually study records, there is not a single instance of actual prosecution in any 3rd world country of any Westerner: they are all let off by presidential pardon. The only rare cases has been of some people accused of drug running in countries like Thailand, Malaysia, etc.
This type of “issue” based politics is not very alien in the West, where from Hitler to some present day politicians have projected themselves of defenders of a cause and raised a big issue, “smoke ‘em out” ring a bell ?
and you always see pictures of the president issuing the pardon in a heavily decorated room filled with flowers and fruit; and everybody looking very happy and smiley.
And 9 out 10 times the “victim” comes back poses with ex boyfriends and girlfriends and gives big happy interviews of how well he/she was treated, instead of looking haggard and tired.
And thus wisdom comes from India!
Dear All,
Sorry, the correct address should be: Hi there all! Mr Rex Stormont here!
Not been on the blog for a while, aside from a few quick scans, but how refereshing to read about an interesting and worthy discussion subject, instead of what seems to have become the norm, ie: fluffy, flowery coffee morning nonsense, topped with soft soap and nostalgia (probably Donny Osmond, or David Cassidy).
Anyway, I was wondering; so, what’s your favourite shade of pink and why? (Don’t bother responding)
Yours truly,
Mr Rex Stormont
Got to be cerise. Final. No debate.
Agree
Point taken gents,
The reason you’ve been invited on as founders is to get amongst it and post articles that appeal to you, the spread of founders (fluffy, non fluffy and combo of both depending on what day of the week it is) will ensure that we have plenty of depth!
We’ll be introducing a POLL plug-in soon when we can ask opinions and people can vote on various issues.
So, if you want less fluff, then post the non fluffy topic of your choice…
Different strokes for different folks! Now give us a big hug, the pair of you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM1hJ_mA2nA
Dear Mr Jim & Mrs Em,
How I wish I was allowed to swear……….!
Yours sincerely,
Mr Rex Stormont
Like I said in my email to Jim. Quality not quantity.
Here we have had good debate. Elsewhere, I’m sorry, but its simply a chat room.
Travel, inspiration and so on, not what was your favourite womble (Tomsk in case you ask).
Thanks to all who posted here it was good to read. RYK you raised an angle I have not given much thought to, I shall certainly look into it.
Fave womble: got to be Madame Cholet, all wrapped in vaguely french maids outfits, the stuff of pre-pubescent fantasies.